Lots of interesting commentary on the comics blogs over the past few days about She Was Asking For It,by Lianne and NotHayama, which critiques the submissive female characters in some shoujo manga aimed at older teens.
These series feature possessive and controlling men, young girls who find male domination a standard and a turn-on, and the concept that sex is something only men initiate.
Responses to the essay have been varied. On Cognitive Dissonance, Johanna Draper Carlson makes an excellent point:
The authors of that essay seem to miss the basic point that presenting something in a story isn’t the same as justifying it.
Over on Comics 212, Chris Butcher counters that
there are some folks, male and female, who determine gender roles and take relationship advice from manga, for good or for ill.
He links to a discussion by Radio Comics publisher Elin Winkler about her experiences in fandom to back up his statement.
I think they’re all right. As a middle-aged mom, settled in a happy marriage, I can take these manga for what they are, fiction. But as a teenager, I constantly measured myself against my friends, my teen magazines, the TV, to figure out what was normal and whether I matched it. I don’t think I was unusual in this regard; whole industries have been built on it (see: advertising, teen magazines). The problem isn’t so much what is written as how it’s read—as fiction or as a prescription for life.
The younger the reader, the more crucial this distinction becomes. I find many of the girls portrayed in younger children’s shoujo manga are way too eager to please. This is not an overtly sexual issue, but Tohru Honda in “Fruits Basket” and Belldandy in “Oh My Goddess!” both seem to believe that the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach. And Yukino, in “Kare Kano,” submits briefly to blackmail, then throws it off (good girl!) and starts a romance with her blackmailer (eh?). Often the boys are protective, but sometimes their behavior borders on the abusive, and the girls seem to accept it.
On the one hand, I’m concerned that my daughters will absorb, even unconsciously, the notion that they should be sweet and submissive and do all the housework. On the other hand, I haven’t seen that happen yet. (If anything, they swing to the other extreme, especially where housework is concerned.) So I’m not pulling the books away. We talk about manga a lot these days, so I have plenty of opportunities for counter-propaganda. Plus they have plenty of stronger role models in the world they live in, which I believe hold more sway than the characters on the printed page.
So, ban shoujo manga? No. Be aware of the messages? You bet, and that’s what I think the authors of the original essay were saying. My daughters will probably eventually read some of the manga cited as “dangerous.” In my experience, it’s pointless to try to ban a book. But I will suggest they measure what they read against what they observe in the real world. Hopefully they’ll already be in that habit by then.
I understand exactly what you mean. At 19, I am at the crossover generation. We are made to believe, especially into submission to the opposite sex. Shjoujo Manga to me is a refection of fantasies and personal experiences through some of the artists. Many figured, a very x-rated series like confessional confessions, which covers stories of girls in some abusive situations. Some of the situations that are presented are indeed conducted in really life. Shoujo manga should not be banned, but they should be some real guidance givien to young girls which some of these stories protray.
I read boys over flowers, and to me the head character is smart and tough. Altough the love interest is indeed a jackass, he learns more about himself to change his ways in the end. Some of the storyline that is involved does or chould happen in real life. People can be ugly at first, and change their ways on fly. All we need to is to educate and contiude to bring an open awareness about it.
I just happened upon this on a random search and couldn’t reseist to comment.
As a girl in my early teens myself I can see the effect shoujo has had on my preceptions. Not always negative but sometimes very negative. I was recently reading Hot Gimmick in which all the girl’s love interests have tried to rape her at some point it seems. On a more positive side it’s given me the belief that I shouldn’t go out with any guy just because he asks me. It’s shown me I’m worth more then that no matter how corny that sounds.
P.S. I couldn’t resist this point Oh My Goddess! is not a proper example of Shoujo as it is aimed at older boys. Do not assume that romance = Shoujo.
I DONT think that reading Shouj is Bad role models for girls. so what, if we like reading shouj then thats ok. I love the charicters in the storys and look forword to the next books.
To be true, I think people would only take someone as a role model if they think he/she is cool. I really don’t think those spineless, overly naive girls from shoujo are seen as role models by Western women; if they were, there wouldn’t be essays like The Dangers of Shoujo.
And I don’t think Yukino or Tohru are really bad role models. There are many girls out there worse than them that you could’ve mentioned, like Hatsumi from Hot Gimmick or any of Mayu Shinjo’s heroines.
I’m sure a lot of older people assume that all teenage girls are easily conforming and will use comic books as their guide for life, but I’m thirteen and a manga addict, and I don’t take any of this stuff seriously.
The only ones who actually think shoujo is like real life are the stupid people who will probably end up like the heroines anyway. If a girl is really “strong-willed,” I doubt her take on how to act will change from reading about extremely unrealistic stories.
Of course, I wish there was more variety in shoujo… it’s extremely annoying to start reading a manga just to discover it’s almost exactly the same as all the others. In my opinion, the personality of girls is what decides the most popular manga, not the other way around. There are a lot of mangas with very different main characters and story, they’re just not popular because of our society.
Lastly, I hate it more when the heroine is perfect. I mean, it’s good to have stories where the characters have faults and are human. I used to feel like I was a horrible person because I thought all people were like the heros in TV shows, but I knew that I was selfish and lazy. Just because a main character acts in a certain doesn’t mean that the writer thinks that’s the ideal person. Looking back, I realize that I had some major self-esteem issues, which could be the case for a lot of young children in elementary school.
I’m sure a lot of my logic is off because I’m young and naiive, but the older teens who are probably the ones reading shoujo manga will at least know this much… I hope.
Hm…I agree with a lot of points that’s been raised.
Honestly, I’m a teen. Adults seem to give too little credits to teenage girls. I for one, treats it as fantasy. That’s it. That’s all. No one in their RIGHT MIND would believe this stuff. It’s something I read, enjoy, than throw away. I would love more “good” manga with realistic heroines—Not too perfect, but not a complete doormat either—but since I don’t treat the stuff too seriously, I don’t really mind, because I’m aware that if any guy tries to treat me that way, I’d punch him back, slam the door in his face, and tell my parents/call the police if it’s that bad.
If the heroine IS completely submissive, she should learn something from it. There should be change within the manga. Unless, of course, it’s smut, and should be completely treated as fantasy. I think the point that Johanna made is very important here. The attitude taken my the mangaka towards the subject should be considered. Having a girl in an abusive relationship, then leave, or learn how to be strong is a great message, as it shows the girl is not perfect, but learns. Hot Gimmick had an awesome start because of its potential in this, and ParaKiss was loved by me for about the same reasons. The girl isn’t doormat submissive, but she was submissive, and realizing it wouldn’t work and making her own decisions led me to love that manga. Too bad Hot Gimmick couldn’t do that at all.
I find it unbelievable that any teenage girl would pick up this stuff and really believe this is what is “love”. But then again, maybe I’m considered the “strong-willed girl” who is always with other similar girls and so is one of the ones that are being aware of this and treating it correctly? When I see stuff on Amazon raving about this, I always think the girl is just gushing and is wrapped up in the fantasy. It would be very disturbing if it was true, but I think that not that great a percentage is taking it seriously….If they are, it’s because there’s something wrong in the first place with them. They’re weak beforehand, and the effect of this “dangerous manga” is rather little….If that’s the case, we should focus more on helping these girls in real life with their self-esteem and to think, and leave these manga as what they are: fantasy.
So yeah. Censorship is not the way to go, (though it IS annoying when some trash is given the title of “great!” or “classic!”). Just be careful the audience is mature enough to handle it is my suggestion. It is a sticky situation, and basically boils down the the girl’s own brain and her parents’ good judgment.
I seem to agree with this. Shoujo manga never interests me, mainly because most of the manga’s are just so typical it gets so sick. The heroine is ALWAYS perfect: Many boys like her, they always have a ‘rival’ who is jealous and vain just to make the heroine seem ‘good,’ and if its a magical genre, the heroine is usually always the ‘powerful one’ or the one who has a rare ability. (Eg. Yuki Cross, Hiyoko Osora).
I agree with the people who said that many mangaka artists write shoujo mangas as a wish fulfillment. One of my problems is that I have friends who adore shoujo, and seem use it as a guide. I just wish that the girls who read shoujo manga and take it seriously would figure out that many of the heroines are ‘Mary Sues,’ and those lead heroines are not exactly the best role models to follow.
Shojo and like many other products of the entertainment industry have to taken at face value. It is very hard to find good role models for boys and girls, when so much information is easily accessed and spreads over a large portion of our population. I would agree that many female characters portrayed in shojo and shounen are perfect and it isn’t just females that are stuck in this portrayal, it is males too. I know many girls that grew up from a western society background find shojo manga’s hard to read because the girls seem ‘weak’ but see girls from shounen manga’s to be good. This is very interesting because girls in shounen manga are typically portrayed as being in the dominate side of a relationship, where shojo manga’s make the girl more insecure about her choices. Just look at dominate shounen mangas like Inuyasha compared to Fruit Basket(someone mentioned it above).
The lack of ‘grrl power’ and feminism influence is something that has to be considered when manga’s are being made from a society that is radically different to what we have today. I am not trying to say this is a good thing or bad thing but it is something that has to be noticed when involving with entertainment from a very different society.
That female submission thing that’s repeated in the shoujo manga is basically a reflection of Japanese culture. A young lady is supposed to behave in a docile manner, take upon the household chores, and basically take care of her husband’s physical needs while he gets income.
i absolutely LOVE shoujo manga. i have read countless oneshots and cliche stories of the boy falling for the girl or vice versa. i’m just a young girl in my earlish teens. I don’t think all girls believe in all manga stories. It’s not like they use it as their bible and stuff. but yah i think when girls read manga stories their kind of hoping it might come true for them. most shoujo stories are stereotypical where there’s trouble before or after a couple is made.
i don’t think it’s a bad role model for all girls. girls who are strong minded and willful believe in their own things and don’t believe in the whole waiting around for my prince charming concept.